E. 2 - Humanizing Your Job Search in the Age of AI with Phillip Migyanko
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[00:00:08] Melissa Vining: If you're a high performer looking to grow and make an impact, but feeling stuck, underappreciated, and burned out at work, you're in the right place. I'm Melissa Vining and this is the Job Search for High Performing Misfits podcast. I help high performers leave draining jobs behind, reclaim their careers and land roles and organizations where they can thrive. Tune in for tips, insights, and inspiration for your journey to fulfilling work that fits you.
[00:00:38] Melissa: Hello and welcome to the job search for High Performing Misfits podcast. My name is Melissa Vining. I'm a certified career coach and certified resume writer, and today I am talking with Phillip Migyanko, and I'm so excited to have you as a first guest on the show, because you've been my own career coach and mentor over the past year and a half, and I know that you have helped so many high performing misfits make big changes, get unstuck, and really find environments where they can thrive at work.
[00:01:07] So you are the creator of The Migyanko Method, you work a lot with director and VP level professionals to help them move forward in their careers. Plus you have a background in recruiting and HR, so I know you're going to have a lot of helpful insights to share with our listeners. So thank you for being here.
[00:01:27] Phillip: Thanks so much for having me, and I'm honored to be the first guest, and it's been an honor just to see you grow and have this awesome podcast. So happy to be here.
[00:01:37] Melissa: So why don't you start off by just telling us a little bit more about yourself, your background, and what you do.
[00:01:43] Phillip: You know, like you mentioned, well, I, I usually go back a little bit farther, so the way I always typically say it is I grew up, on a landfill and hauling business. So we had the giant hole in the ground, we had the trash trucks, all those kinds of things. So I've always come from a very entrepreneurial family who we've just figured things out and we've done those, done those kinds of stuff.
[00:02:04] We sold that business in 2014. My family had that landfill hauling business for 47 years, and so I had an opportunity to kind of just change things up and do new things. And then I moved to Austin, Texas. Loved it there, was in a recruiting and staffing kind of position, so I learned a lot about that type of work.
[00:02:24] And while it was great in so many different ways, what I found so constricting about it was it didn't allow me to really, I guess get to know people. You had to do 20 minutes, get them into a slot, and then move them on. And Melissa, you know, from working with me, and I think hopefully our listeners can maybe begin to tell here, is that I really like getting to know people, getting into the deep conversations, and that just doesn't happen in 20 minutes.
[00:02:52] So I left that job. I worked on the backend with, a pay per click job advertising, kind of like indeed.com. And so I learned a lot of the backend applicant tracking systems and a lot of the robots that go into how do you apply for a job and how do you get a job. And then I, do what I typically do, which is I find somebody, and this is usually the career tip that I give to all of my clients and something hopefully that, the listeners can take away today, is I find somebody who is doing the exact thing that I want to do, and then I just figure out a way to make him my best friend.
[00:03:25] And that guy at the time was Scott Anthony Barlow. He runs a company called Happen to Your Career, which is where you and I met and I helped him create the PCC, the Professional Career Coach training and certification program, which is the program you went through, but modified quite a bit, because we now customize it very specific to the individual. And I worked for him for around five years doing basically everything except for editing the podcast.
[00:03:49] And then at that point I moved away from that for the most part. And now I do my own consulting with The Migyanko Method, like you mentioned. I help run a couple other coaching businesses and help them build that. And then I also, run another consulting company with a business partner where we train leaders on how to coach and how to build a coaching culture. So I do lots of different things and more.
[00:04:12] Melissa: That's amazing. I wanted to start by talking about kind of this shift that we've seen into technology taking over in this space and, you know, the rise in this in the past couple years and the rise in how people are using this in their job search process, and in some cases on the other side, how companies are using it in their hiring practices. And I think the job search has changed so drastically over the past couple years because of this in a way that we probably haven't seen ever before. and I think this is scaring a lot of people and making them a little bit confused on what to do here. So I'm wondering what you've seen in the landscape and how this has affected job searching.
[00:05:00] Phillip: Yeah, it's definitely interesting, right? And something that I talk with all my coach friends about. And so something even you and I talked about was it, it's like I feel like the advice that I gave a year ago, two years ago, three years ago, but particularly, almost a year ago, isn't as applicable now. Meaning that yes, lots of employers are using AI because why wouldn't they? It makes it so much easier. They're getting so many more applicants. They have to figure out a way to make these things, these things work.
[00:05:29] However, the trade off of that decision is that the whole hiring process, even more as, as it's already very dehumanizing, it's become even more dehumanizing in some different ways. And I, and I don't mean to use that word so liberally, and the way that, I mean that is, it is very chaotic. It's very messy. And so I, I don't know if that's always the best solution, but it's the one we've got, and it does great in so many different ways.
[00:05:53] However, the advice that we've given before in the aspect of, alright, here's how you go for a job. Here's how you apply for them. Here's what you do. And to a certain point even, here's how you reach out to people. Here's how you have a conversation. Even that is a little bit, outdated.
[00:06:10] And what I mean by that, and, and this is the stuff I think both of our listeners have heard, and I have definitely coached about this, is like, so you'll go on LinkedIn, you'll find somebody, you'll send that typical,reach out message, which is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Hello Melissa. I happened to, to find you on, I happened to stumble upon your LinkedIn profile, you're doing really great work at insert company. I would love to have a conversation. Here's what I'm doing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[00:06:35] That advice doesn't work anymore, or it's not as effective anymore because I I think it's so noisy out in the world, and it's so noisy with the amount of AI stuff, that we have to be more direct. And what I argue, and really what I really try to emphasize with my clients is become more personable.
[00:06:55] So, you know, this is another concept I'm sure we'll talk about later in the podcast. but I think we have to become more personable, and if that means we're sending out less messages or applying for less jobs, I think that's okay in the aspect of are you actually trying to be a human in a much more like less human oriented world, if that makes sense.
[00:07:18] Melissa: Yeah, it's this idea of quality over quantity. And this is what I'm always talking about too. And it's true, as you said, of the networking and it's true of applications and actually being more intentional and more targeted in both of those spaces gets you better results faster.
[00:07:36] And so I want to go back to what you said about people getting all of these messages, because we've seen this so much, and I know I get these, you probably get these, all of the job seekers that are listening get these. And it makes people, I think really discouraged because it's like, what is the point? Like, how should I really be doing this? So what's your advice on, reacting to that and then also how can someone do that differently in a way that stands out?
[00:08:06] Phillip: Yeah. Yeah. It's, this is where I'll often get very, specific with individuals and we get towards the why of what we're doing things, and, and we try to find the, the intrinsic motivator to why we're doing, the whole thing in the first place. Right.
[00:08:24] I've got my Ironman hat on, so I do Ironmans in my spare time, which I'm told they are fun to do, but, you know, I, I have fun, but that's, not everybody thinks about it, but I think they're cool. But with Ironman's, there's some aspect where you have to,find your motivation, and then dig down deeper. And so it's like things are going to be hard. You are definitely going to get rejections. You're going to get rejections for the jobs you are overqualified for. You're going to get rejections for the jobs you are qualified for, and you're going to get them for the ones you are underqualified for. So I think it's, keeping your head focused. I was going to say keep your head down either one, but keep your head focused and just following the process. And what following the process typically means is yes, applying for some jobs, but also connecting with individuals. And again, this is where it comes back to the humanizing process and into the question you're asking of how and where do you stand out. Typically it's how are you connecting in with individuals and are you doing it in a more personable way?
[00:09:27] And I think to a certain point, are you putting yourself out there first? I have a client and we could talk about this concept of, are you investing in it first? Right? If, if you, if you're trying to go into a whole new field, or do something different, and you're coming from a different background, and either you haven't taken a course, or you haven't, like, you haven't done anything around it, then I'm not necessarily going to take you as seriously. And that's, not to say I'm not going to have a conversation with you.
[00:09:51] But what I mean by that is I think sometimes we want to be, more risk averse and that's okay. However, we have to do a couple things that let us stand out, and I think the way you connect with people in a way more personable and not to use this over, not overuse this word, I'm trying to bring this, this word back, but authentic word back and in a way that is like, hey, I'm already putting in the work to do the thing that I'm wanting to do, and I'm standing out that's different from other people.
[00:10:21] Because what I believe in, and partially this is what AI's kind of doing. And I use AI to help a lot with my reach out messages with my clients too, is typically in the world when we are out there searching for jobs, we get told this "professional" type of language, and it kind of shaves off the edges of who we are.
[00:10:37] And a lot of what I believe in this whole job search process is, really at the end of the day, a real true career change, and it's different from a job change, but a career change is more about, are you becoming more of who you want to be or who you are. It's a really big identity shift, and so with that, we have to have the space for these very deep and somewhat emotional coaching conversations or conversations we're having out in the space.
[00:11:04] And that's meant to say, is you have to be okay dealing with uncertainty, and you have to be okay dealing with a lot of the rejection and be able to hold space for the emotion of that and keep moving forward and, and still keep being you and the person you want to be. Even though the world keeps pushing back and beating you up in so many different ways.
[00:11:20] It's not as tactical. I understand. So, sorry for our listeners, we can get some tactical stuff in there, but it's more of that bigger concept is, hey look, the world is trying to shave off the edges of you. Part of the coaching process that Melissa and I do a lot is we, we really try to make sure that, um, we're really helping people become themselves. And then how do you do that out in the world? And definitely rejection comes along the way.
[00:11:45] Melissa: And I think that's such an important mindset shift because especially now that AI is so prevalent, what I've seen is that people feel like they need to use technology to outsmart technology. And so they're, they're like, okay, I have to do this thing. It feels gross, it feels inauthentic, and I don't want to do it, but I feel like I have to because that's the so-called professional standard right now.
[00:12:12] So let's go back to your idea of, I know you said sometimes you do use AI to help you craft these outreach messages. So how can you do that in a way that does feel authentic? How can you use it more as a tool that's going to help you maybe do this faster, but still be you and be someone that can stand out?
[00:12:36] Phillip: Usually that's a really good question, and it's a mixed bag with lots of different things. So what I encourage everybody to do is go and play with it yourself. So I use ChatGPT, but Gemini, all those other ones, doesn't technically matter. Start playing with it yourself because we're never going to outsmart it, and I don't recommend to outsmart it.
[00:12:58] However, I think it's like if you were building a house and you never used a hammer, and you're like, well, I don't use any hammers to build a house. Those tools, blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, the hammers are here. You gotta use the hammer to build the house. And if you don't, you're just going to build it slower or going to be less efficient with it.
[00:13:13] It's this idea, like, you have to figure out a way to use the tools themselves. So for example, I was helping a client with a reach out message. And so we took the example, reach out message, we took, his resume, we took a little bit of the person's information, and then we're like, hey, give us 10 email subject lines that are friendly, direct, and eye catching. And so it gave us 10 different ones. And then we're like, okay, cool, number two's great and number eight's great. But I want to maybe switch 'em up a little bit. So that's what we did. We just used that and then we changed up the words and so we used it to kind of help us.
[00:13:48] The same thing I've used it for, I generally have like a template of a reach out message that I'll use, and then I'll go, alright, here's this person's information. Here's my client's information. Let's find some commonalities in there, and then I'll use that as a beginning stage to do that stuff. So I don't recommend to use it as a crutch to write your stuff, because in my opinion, I think whenever I write something in ChatGPT, it kind of takes the soul out of it. And I know that kind of sounds weird, but I'm like, it's just, it just doesn't, it sounds so blah and generic.
[00:14:18] And so I will just use it as a starting point, which I think is what a lot of people are doing. And then be able to add all my stuff, add my little quirks. And again, we're getting told to make it more professional, or we feel like we need to make it more professional, make it more polished. And I kind of argue a little bit of less than that. I think we need to make it more like you would get a text message from your friends.
[00:14:41] So reframe that I give to my clients whenever they are trying to stand out, when they're sending a message specifically, but you can think about it in the job search market, is, and this is just the way I think about it, is okay if I was sending a message to Melissa right now, if I were to see her in a coffee shop, like literally, and for our listeners, I'm closing my eyes and I'm literally picturing it here and I'm going, okay, what would I say to Melissa? How would it sound? And let me just say that. And so sometimes this is what I've had to do with clients to almost deprogram them from a lot of the work they've done from before in so many different ways and go, how would you talk from a person, to a person if that was just your friend?
[00:15:24] Because at the end of the day, this is just a message. You will send a lot more and there's a lot more bigger things to be stressed out in the world. Like at the end of the day, you'll be okay. Even if it's the worst message in the entire world, I promise you there are worst things that will happen. So one of the concepts that you and I relate on a lot and something that one of my business partners I talk about a lot is with the rise of technology, so comes the rise of human connection. And so I think the piece that I don't want to have a takeaway here is whatever you're trying to do in this job search market is make it more human connection centric, no matter what you're doing.
[00:16:05] And so one of the things I'd also advocate here is if you can, in the best ways, and sometimes not everybody can because the location you're at or the schedule you're on is, you know, try to meet more people in person or try to go to more communities in person, because so much of what AI is doing for us, and this has been happening even before this remote work, all the things is we're not actually talking to each other. We're not having those connection pieces.
[00:16:32] And so I think really the differentiator is when people can see you, when they can hear your voice, when they can kind of get to know you in developing those relationships with those deeper connections because that's what's going to be, and in my opinion, the biggest differentiator moving forward in so many different ways.
[00:16:50] There's a world economic, report. The two biggest skills are going to be needed in the future is one: AI, AI technology, those kinds of things. I'm not going to be great at that. I don't think many people are. So that's one aspect. And the other one is more of those, what I'll call soft skills. I don't like calling them soft skills, by the way, but it's more of the managing, it's more of that, that aspect of different things.
[00:17:11] Melissa: So what I'm kind of hearing from you is that there's been this shift in how we even approach networking and what's effective, because a couple years ago we were teaching all of this as kind of this online process, right? We're using LinkedIn, we're finding people's emails, we're reaching out, we're having Zoom chats, and now you're saying it's, even more powerful to be in person and to have that real live connection. So what kinds of strategies do you recommend for people to find and connect with the right people and still bring intentionality to the process, but do it in the more live, face-to-face way?
[00:17:53] Phillip: So what I'd say is go out there and actually get involved in your community stuff. It's like we have to practice actually talking to people. And me and you talk to people for a living, but we talk to people in a very specific context, in a very specific way. And I think what happens for people when they are in such big work situations is they get used to talking to people or they're not really talking to people in a job search sense. They're working a job and they just get used to that pattern of behavior and that pattern of thinking.
[00:18:23] And so partially in a job search sense, you have to get used to talking to people about you, talking to people what you want, but also just talking to people authentically. So whatever that means. If you go to church, great. If you get involved in local sports stuff, great. If you talk to parents at your children's events, great. Whatever that is, it's engaging with more of your in-person world, the better, because you have to again, be getting better at having physical human conversations.
[00:18:52] And one of the things I talk about with my clients and even just in general, is I'm trying to keep this flag and hold onto this very specific thing, which is we still need to connect to each with each other, because I think AI is going to take over everything, including my space, including what my therapist does. Like, I think it's going to take over all those kinds of things. So I think that's one aspect.
[00:19:12] And then another one of how to find those people that can create more authentic conversations, or even things like that is, um, is engage in the world and in the stuff that you enjoy. And I know that's, again, it's much harder. But I think it's really engaging in all that world. Because I have clients again who are trying to figure out really what they want to do.
[00:19:35] And for example, I have another client right now, and he just found this really cool conference. He can't go to it, but it just looks so cool, and he really would like to go to it. So we're just connecting our people with people all around doing that really interesting work at that conference. And so finding cool people that are doing cool things and making them your friends. That's the strategy that I've used.
[00:19:56] And at the end of the day, and you might be asking yourself, oh geez, Phillip, like I have no idea what's cool. I have no idea what do I do. And that's also okay, but you still have to find a way to connect with people that is more like you and that, you know, you don't have to go and practice in so many different ways.
[00:20:13]
[00:20:15] Melissa: So what do you say to people who feel really uncomfortable with the idea of networking? Because this is something that I think has a really bad reputation overall, and people just hear the word and they're like, oh my gosh, I don't even know how to approach that. I don't know what to do. It's, not going to go well. What kinds of things do you find are helpful to those people?
[00:20:38] Phillip: How much time do we have would be my first question. I think we have to reframe networking. And I reframe it for my clients in so many different ways. One tool that we use in the program that you went through. is the, StrengthFinders assessment or even DISC. And so I'll try to figure out what are those motivators for people when they're connecting with people.
[00:20:55] For me, as you can tell, one of my motivators is I just like to make new friends. I like to connect with people. And so if you told me, Phillip, you have to network with individuals, and you have to, reach out to 10 people every week or something like that, it, I've tried that before, and it doesn't specifically work for me. So I think first is finding the motivator to why are you reaching out and having these conversations with people you've never met before on purpose? Like, actually, why are you doing it and why is it important to you first? Because everything else after that really doesn't matter. So why are you doing it first and what's it trying to do?
[00:21:29] I think people put a lot of pressure on themselves to make it work and present themselves in a certain way. And I think one of the things that's really important is, yes, the ability to have good conversations, but the ability to talk to people and actually be real in so many different ways. I think people try different things and try to present themselves in certain ways. And so they just, they put so much pressure on themselves to make the thing work.
[00:21:56] Or the way that I say it is you might be having an upcoming conversation. You might be, uh, talking to somebody soon and, even know in your head, you don't think they're going to give you the job or something like that. There's like this, this implicit expectation. Like, okay, I'm going to go talk to Bob at this company. And I think Bob, by the end of the conversation is going to love me so much, he's going to be like, oh my gosh, Phillip, you are the best ever. Here's a million dollar job offer. It's great. Perfect, blah, blah, blah. And I go, I know you're not saying that, and you might not even necessarily be thinking that, but there's this, this implicit thing. So at the end of the day, really, what do you want this conversation to be? And let's get really specific there.
[00:22:37] And then the other thing when it comes to networking is, again, it's just, it's the reps. It's let's just be really good at having kind of a conversation, and what I believe is the underneath thing there, the bigger concept there is your ability to deal with uncertainty. And what I mean by that is you never know where a conversation's going to go. And because you and I have conversations all the time, and so for our listeners here, we do lots of coaching conversations. We kind of have a plan of where we think they're going to go. And most of the time they go that way. But you have to also be prepared for conversations and coaching conversations to not go that way. So you become really good at having a plan, and then throwing out that plan when it doesn't work, right?
[00:23:22] Melissa: Yeah.
[00:23:22] Phillip: And so it's like, okay, how do we throw out that plan when it doesn't work? And be okay with doing that. And I think it's that, this ability to have a conversation there.
[00:23:31] Melissa: Yeah. And there's definitely a balance between preparing for that conversation and then going in and saying, I know that it's going to be unexpected, because that's what a conversation is. And I do the training for my team at the career center where I work, and I'm talking to the coaches about this too, because they go in kind of with this very, you know, strict plan of like, this is what we're going to do, and then you see that the person on the other side is going in a different direction, so we have to be able to go along with that.
[00:24:04] And I'm so glad you mentioned the part about like the why of networking and what is your goal, because I think that this has to be a huge mindset shift for people. They're usually focusing on just the one goal, which is, I need to get a job,
[00:24:21] Phillip: yeah.
[00:24:21] Melissa: and we have to, step back from that because that's not going to be the most effective way to approach this.
[00:24:28] Phillip: Yeah.
[00:24:29] Melissa: What are the other and maybe better ways of thinking about those goals? Like what are some of the other things that you find people get out of networking?
[00:24:41] Phillip: I'm going to somewhat answer your question, but I'm going to answer the question in my head and then I think I'll reverse get to the back door of your question. So you were saying something in there, but even our coaches, but even our people. And I think so much, and I, I'm sure this happens to you where you'll start a whole journey, and you think you know where you're going or you think you know what the end is, or you were really holding on tight to the end goal and you're like, I gotta get this. And to be clear, there are some people who really need to get the job, or as one of my coach friends and I say, we say, baby needs shoes. Baby needs shoes, which is, you know, you need food on the table, then sure. We have to be very specific in what we gotta get. And we have to be very focused in that kinds of stuff.
[00:25:26] And there are people who thrive in that level of specificity and that very specific kind of plan. But I think it's this bigger concept behind there, which is partially, this is a creative endeavor and it's a journey. And I often will tell my clients it's less about the destination and more about the direction. Because we have no idea where the world is going.
[00:25:51] And I'm sure you have clients like this like I do, where they'll come in and they'll say, Phillip, if I knew everything that was out there, if I could just see all the options and if I could just pick from those, that would be great. And I go, well, that doesn't help. That doesn't work. Because there's new jobs getting created all the time. The world keeps changing, and even if we did do that, we'd go through at least a third of them and you'd be like, that's too many options, blah, blah, blah. Like, that's too bad. We got like another two thirds to go through because that's what you said you wanted.
[00:26:18] And so it comes back to something that I've taught a lot about the upfront prioritization, like what creates a really great fit, and knowing that, but also on the backend too of like, we don't really know where this is going, and you have to be okay with that. You can have goals, you have specific things, but so many people get caught up in that I need this thing or I need this thing to happen, and it usually ties back into some form of identity or some form of fear. And so it's usually unpacking that to really, to make sure that's not holding us back in any certain ways.
[00:26:50] So when it comes to networking or really when it comes to job search is that it's this idea of, I don't know really where this is going to end up, but I know at least the direction that I want, which is I want more flexibility and autonomy, which is a really big thing right now in the market for individuals. I want more flexibility and autonomy because I want to be able to take my kids to a doctor's appointments and go see them at softball games any place that I want. Or my kids are about to go to college, I need to make sure I am earning enough money and all those kinds of things. Or what's really important to me is I do this kind of work right now that is more philanthropic, so I'm going to do that. And every decision has trade offs.
[00:27:29] And so one of the really difficult things that we run into is that people don't know how to prioritize. It's, you can have everything, but you can't have everything all at once. And so what are the most important things right now, and what are you willing to trade off? And then being very specific about that, and your intentionality of your networking conversations.
[00:27:48] So it's, you know, I might not know everything, and by the way, not everybody knows everything, so you can come into conversations incredibly imperfect and go, I only know this much I think, you know, three steps more than I do. Help me bridge the gap between where I am and where you are. That's not how I'd phrase it, but that's the way I think about it.
[00:28:05] And so when it comes to this whole stuff, it's what's the direction we're going and don't be so, held so tight and hard onto what the, what you think is going to happen or the way you think it's going to work, because it's going to be so much harder, it's not going to end up where you think, and you're going to get kicked in the face a whole bunch of times. So, and I don't mean to be so doom and gloom about it, but it's more about this, this aspect of this is hard and how you get through hard things is just by showing up and doing it over and over again, having the bigger picture, and to a certain point, having the support, whether it be from a coach or be from friends or family or any of those kinds of things.
[00:28:46] Melissa: So if we're using networking and having these conversations as a way to help figure out what is it that we really want next? Because that's a lot of the times what you and I are teaching people to do, and when they come in and they're like, I don't know, I could do all these different things, or I don't really know, or I want to see that giant list of all of the different jobs. How do we use conversations to help us make progress towards that clarity?
[00:29:15] Phillip: That's a good question. I think it, it's, it's kind of going and knowing what are the bigger things first. Like what are the bigger things you know that are going to matter to you the most? And I think it's the ability to really get specific about them in conversations and really to a certain point go, okay, I'm going to test out and see does this person have what I want, or what I think that I want? And let's hear from their perspective. Is this getting me more of what I'm looking for, getting more of me, what I want. And then checking in with yourself.
[00:29:48] So I'll often advocate for my clients of having what I call a feel good list. So they will be in the middle of conversation and they're hearing something, and they go, ooh, oh, that felt good. And then I have them write that down, and then have them bring that to the next session. And I go, okay, what felt good about that? What was it specifically about that?
[00:30:05] And usually you need somebody else, because we can only see so much of what felt good for us. And you need somebody to help you dig deeper. So typically, I'll have clients, when we're trying to figure out those priorities or get, you know, deeper into that list of priorities to really be diving in with their, the people I have side of really, wait, help me understand what that means, or what do you mean by that?
[00:30:26] And this goes beyond, let me just, let's, let's, let's make sure we, we kill something here today, which is, that goes beyond the question of what does a typical day look like for you, Melissa? Like, boring question. So, I, I go, alright. Let's find a better way if, what's the answer you're looking to get to? Well, I just want to see what the day to day looks like.
[00:30:44] Great. So let's figure out a better way to maybe ask that question, which could be, hey, tell me maybe what your best day looks like. So what's a really good day look like? And what's a typical like, what's one of the worst days of what, what does that look like? So help me understand when you're having a really good day, how does it flow? And then what typically gets in the way from that. You know, different ways to ask questions and then I would coach somebody, well, how's it make it sound more like Melissa? Or any of those kinds of things.
[00:31:12] So it's this aspect of digging and being actually very curious, and maybe even asking a question that is uncomfortable that, you know, you might not know the answer to or might not come out perfectly but if they understand the intention of it, that gets you there.
[00:31:28] Melissa: And I think a lot of the times people don't trust themselves enough going into this because it, it's probably true that they do know some of what they want and they might just still show up and say, I have no idea what I want. I just know that I don't want to do what I'm doing. so I think just sitting with it a little bit on your own and figuring out these are the things that are important to me. Maybe reflecting on your past experience and deciding this is what I really enjoyed. Maybe it was a small piece of it,
[00:32:00] Phillip: Yeah.
[00:32:01] Melissa: and these are the things that I don't want. And now we can bring those into the conversations and develop questions around those things that you already know are important to you or you already know is something you don't want to have.
[00:32:14] Phillip: Well, I think for the misfits too, right? Because this is a podcast for Misfits. It's sometimes you have a lot of different things that you want that aren't always related. And so one of the things I'm always trying to advocate is does somebody kind of understand enough of who you are and what you're looking for? They don't need to get everything and they know to get all the stuff, but it's partially, you know, no one's going to be able to get that just by, by talking to you for five minutes or saying those things is, you have to also explain maybe what's important to you and why it's important.
[00:32:47] And that means like, hey, this is, this is where I've been through, and kind of why it's important for me to be able to see my kids at softball practice, or this is why it's important for me to, like, I tell the story about me about why I am more in an entrepreneurial space because I grew up in it, right? I told that story at the beginning of introducing myself. And even why I do these more conversations, because I've been in environments where I was constricted on having those conversations.
[00:33:12] And so you can glean a couple things from what I'm trying to do, or at least who I'm about in so many different ways because of that, and the misfit place is that, you know, that's the other hard part that I'd say is you often, and again, I don't mean to be the bearer bad news, but I feel like you actually face more rejection as a misfit. Partially being a misfit is because you are not like everybody else. And if you're trying to do things like everybody else, in a way like everybody else, then you're going to keep getting the results like everybody else. Good or bad there, either way.
[00:33:45] Melissa: Yeah.
[00:33:45] Phillip: And so partially being a misfit is really figuring out what works for you, why it works for you, and leaning into that, and experimenting that with over time, knowing that you will probably face more rejection than not. But like anybody doing something very hard and growing into the person you're trying to become of more or more of who you already are, you're going to get a lot of resistance to that.
[00:34:09] And that resistance isn't always bad. That resistance is there to kind of go, hey, at least this is the way I think of it, and I reframe it for myself as like, it's like, Phillip, are you, actually really wanting to be that person? Are you really trying to do this stuff? Like, because if you are, this is what this means. This is how it works. This is hard. And I go, okay, cool. This is hard and this is what I have to do.
[00:34:30] And that's why a lot of my coach friends that help me when my hard days go, oh, okay, this is a hard day. Am I doing the right thing? Like, yep. Okay, this is the right thing, right? We're all human beings. We all go through these things. Melissa and I go through these things all the time. Like this is part of the human experience and we are helping people get better at change. But really being that, what I call that transitional facilitator for this stuff is we're coming into people's lives through these big fundamental changes and helping them sit and change when they feel very ungrounded. And move to something better, or at least move to something that's more them.
[00:35:08] Melissa: Yeah, and I think all of those points are so valid in this context, and especially because the main thing that you have to do to be successful in the job search is to stand out. So as a misfit, you're already kind of standing out. So let's lean into it and figure out how we can use that to the advantage and really pull out the unique pieces of what you're doing and who you are, and use that to humanize the process even more.
[00:35:38] Phillip: Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard. you, you already are standing out and you have to figure out those ways to do it for yourself. And what worked from before might not work this time, and it might change over time. And let's just be clear too, like this is all happening while you are working at a job. While you still have that same life that maybe you feel like that misfit who's around a bunch of people that don't understand those kinds of things. So it's very much you are trying to escape a path or escape a life that is different from all those kinds of things.
[00:36:15] One of the things I'm working on right now is this idea of grief when it comes to job changes, and job work, and career changes. Because I think at the end of the day, it's holding the space for the emotion of grief, because we thought our lives were going to go one way. We thought this was going to happen.
[00:36:31] And then for one reason or another it wasn't. Or we're going through that identity change or that identity shift, where what worked from before doesn't work anymore. And so it's sitting with that really emotional power of grief. Because in some ways we're going through some professional death, where the thing that we thought was going to work is no longer working.
[00:36:51] So again, how do we hold space for that emotion, that huge emotion of grief, and do that within the ability of sometimes in conversations themselves and then be able to go, alright, this is where I'm at, and where's the direction I'm going to next?
[00:37:07] Melissa: I relate to that so much because as someone who grew up training to be a musician my whole life and starting my career in that, it was the kind of thing where I spent, you know, 20 years doing this one thing and now all of a sudden I'm in the space where I realize it's not working, and that identity piece is so important, and something that probably people don't think about enough. So we could probably talk a whole podcast on this, but what kind of advice do you have for people right now as you're starting to explore that idea?
[00:37:46] Phillip: This is where I'd say one, have a great therapist, probably, I think is the biggest thing, and I don't mean to go therapy culture, do those kinds of things, but what I am saying is from an advice perspective, grief is a big emotion to feel, and it's often a big emotion to feel by yourself. So having somebody alongside the way, hopefully with some training or some background in it is always great to have.
[00:38:08] But I think it's this sitting in this idea like, okay, my life and my work didn't go the way that I wanted it to, and now I've got to pivot. So it goes back to that same concept we're talking about from before, where it is that client or that person where they go, I gotta get a job. I gotta go do this thing. It's gotta work this way. It's gotta work this way. And I think it's being comfortable with being uncomfortable with kind of knowing, I don't actually know where this is going. I don't know what I'm looking for, but here's the things I know are important, or here's the direction I want to go to, or here's what's going to happen next.
[00:38:42] And so I think when you're figuring out that identity shift and who you are, it's really trying to put yourself into situations that are going to expose you to different situations that might I guess challenge you or show you different aspects of yourself you didn't know from before.
[00:39:00] So again, this is where the work that that we do as coaches is to help get in the nuance of, well, maybe you like doing marketing, but maybe you don't like doing marketing for a company of people for over 200, maybe like doing it more of a startup. Or maybe you actually don't like doing a startup, maybe you actually like it where there's a lot more resources available and you have to wear more hats. Maybe you like it doing it for a big organization that has the resources.
[00:39:20] So again, that's just a tiny example in the nuance of so many different things. And I, my own personal journey where I talk with a lot of clients about is like, you are also not your work. You are not your job. You are so much more than that. I think our work and our careers are an extension of our identity.
[00:39:37] So it's really coming back to more of who you are and who your work is, and those, those are big subjects. That's a really big thing to wrestle with. And like you said, 20 years, like it takes a long time to go through those things, too. So it's moving through that stuff in the best ways we can.
[00:39:51] So not necessarily the best and the most clearest advice, but It's hard work. It takes a lot of time to go through, expose yourself to new situations or, or more new people, and keep notes. Use a coach and then just keep moving through it because it's going to take more time than you think.
[00:40:07] Melissa: I think that's such an important point because even though you might be changing what you do, you are fundamentally the same person. And that's where we talk a lot about strengths and we use the CliftonStrengths and the assessments because that makes such a big difference in being able to recognize those things about yourself and then pull them into the next phase in your career and into your job search.
[00:40:31] Phillip: Yeah.
[00:40:32] Melissa: We could go on forever, but as we're coming to a close, if you can leave listeners with one piece of career or job search advice, what would that be?
[00:40:40] Phillip: Oh, that's a good question. I think at the end of the day, I think what I, I honestly, what I'd say from a, career oriented aspect is, find where work and your career is in your life right now, is it the most important thing or is it not the most important thing? And again, that's going to change. Because at the end of the day, no matter whatever happens, I think the most important things in life come back to family, love, that type of stuff. And if your job is taking you away to be the person you want to be, especially for the closest people in your life, then I don't think it's working.
[00:41:17] And so sometimes you have to make some big compromises where maybe you're making a lot of money and spending less time at home, and that's okay. And if you know that's going to be a certain period for a certain time, that's okay, but there might be other times where you're not being the best husband, father, mother, daughter, whatever that might be for other people's people around you.
[00:41:37] So it's really trying to figure out, at the end of the day, right now, where do you want the work and the career to sit for you, and making sure it's really adding back into your life.
[00:41:47] And again, that's going to change over time.
[00:41:50] Melissa: Okay. So if people want to get in touch with you and learn more about all the great work that you're doing, follow you, how do they do that?
[00:41:56] Phillip: Sure, connect with me on LinkedIn. It's Phillip, P-H-I-L-L-I-P. My last name is Migyanko. It's going to be spelled on the things. But anyways, M-I-G-Y-A-N-K-O. You can find me there. I'm relaunching my own podcast. It's The Career Conversations podcast coming out soon. Or you can follow me on any of the socials. It's just @pmigyanko as my handle. And yeah, you can follow me there.
[00:42:18] Melissa: Perfect. Well, thank you again for being here and being the first guest. It was such a pleasure.
[00:42:23] Phillip: It's been an honor. Thank you very much.
[00:42:27] Melissa Vining: If you love this podcast, be sure to hit subscribe. Leave me a review and share it with a friend so we can help more high performing misfits find work they love. See you next time.
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