E. 5 - Thinking Outside the Box: Judy Katz on Neuroinclusion
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[00:00:08] Melissa: If you're a high performer looking to grow and make an impact, but feeling stuck, underappreciated, and burned out at work, you're in the right place. I'm Melissa Vining and this is the Job Search for High Performing Misfits podcast. I help high performers leave draining jobs behind, reclaim their careers and land roles in organizations where they can thrive. Tune in for tips, insights, and inspiration for your journey to fulfilling work that fits you.
[00:00:39] Melissa: Welcome to the Job Search for High Performing Misfits podcast. My name is Melissa Vining. I'm a certified career coach and certified resume writer, and today I am talking with Judy Katz, who is the founder of Neurodivergent Working, where she does training, consulting, coaching, advocacy, and so much more to help organizations leverage the power of neurodivergence. She has an MBA with a focus on Organizational Development and a Master's of Education in Instructional Design for workplace learning. And Judy, you and I are both neurodivergent, and I know the thing that you love to do is to help organizations understand and accommodate their neurodivergent employees, not just to check the box, but to actually benefit from all the unique strengths that they bring to the workplace. So thank you for being here.
[00:01:28] Judy Katz: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:01:30] Melissa: So can you start off just by telling us a little bit more about yourself and your background and what you do?
[00:01:36] Judy Katz: Well, absolutely. So first of all, like you said, I am, uh, we call AuDHD+. I'm autistic, I have ADHD, and some other things that we can probably talk about as well, but those are the things that we tend to kind of bring to the forefront most. I have worked in the learning and development field for over two decades, um, mostly as an instructional designer, um, and trainer, presenter, writer. And a few years ago, just started focusing full-time on helping companies become more neuro-inclusive and neuro-accessible, and that's really been my passion. It sort of grew out of a personal journey.
[00:02:12] Judy Katz: I am neurodivergent, and like many women actually, I was late diagnosed, due to my kids being diagnosed, and finding out more about autism and ADHD as part of that journey, that led to a discovery for me, which happens actually really, really frequently, um, especially with women.
[00:02:32] Judy Katz: I've always had a big focus on accessibility and usability and DEI, and so I decided to bring neurodivergence into my work, and more into the public knowledge as an accessibility topic and a DEI topic. And that just ended up being where I took everything. So that's what I've been doing for a few years.
[00:02:51] Melissa: Awesome. And I've had the same experience where my child was diagnosed, and I was late-diagnosed and we discover, oh look, our whole family is neurodivergent. And I think it's probably likely that a lot of the listeners who are in the category of high performing misfits may be neurodivergent, whether they know it or not. So I'm very happy that we get to have this conversation.
[00:03:15] Melissa: But for people who might not be as familiar with the terminology, can you just tell us a little bit about that? About neurodiversity? What does it mean when we say neurodivergent, neurotypical, and any other terms that people should know?
[00:03:29] Judy Katz: Oh, I love this. I love the focus on terminology because there's a lot of different stuff, floating around, and I think the terminology is also kind of in flux. So what I subscribe to is that you have people whose brains function differently, you know, within a wide enough range, differently from the typical, those people are neurodivergent.
[00:03:50] Judy Katz: And then you have neurotypical. So I'm very cautious not to say the word normal, um, which is kind of a judgment laden word. However, there is the range of what's considered typical. So everybody within that range whose brain functions within that range is neurotypical. Um, everyone whose brains function outside of that range is neurodivergent.
[00:04:11] Judy Katz: So if we're doing an imaginary Venn diagram, we've got two circles, neurodivergent and neurotypical. And the other word that you said, neurodiversity, is sort of the big umbrella, or the encircling circle, because diversity, of course, encompasses everyone. I am pro saying neurodivergent when you mean neurodivergent and not using neurodiversity or neurodiverse, um, as sort of a, a euphemism.
[00:04:37] Judy Katz: I think that sometimes people do hesitate to say divergent or different or disabled. There's kind of a whole basket of words that people tend to avoid for different reasons, most of them well intended. But you wouldn't say, if you take this to, you know, other areas of diversity, you wouldn't say, oh, these are the diverse candidates for hire. That I hope you wouldn't say that. Referring to the non-mainstream group as the diverse group is terrible. So extending that, um, I go ahead and say neurodivergent, neurotypical, neurodiversity includes all of us.
[00:05:09] Melissa: Yeah, perfect. So, I kind of mentioned this already, but I think a lot of the neurodivergent people fall into the category of high performing misfits, and they have these amazing strengths. When they're in the right setting, they can be super successful, but then when they're in an environment where maybe they're misaligned or misunderstood or it's not built for them and it's not accommodating, it causes so many problems.
[00:05:36] Melissa: And obviously there's a huge underemployment and unemployment rate among neurodivergent people. My own story of going through more than 20 jobs before the age of 30 kind of makes a lot of sense when you put it into this context. All of this to say, that it can be really hard for neurodivergent people to get hired and then keep their jobs. So I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about some common challenges that neurodivergent people face in the hiring process and the workplace.
[00:06:07] Judy Katz: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, the hiring process can have a lot of common challenges, and I'm going to speak to the employers here, because I think that there are a lot of amazing benefits of hiring neurodivergent brains. Um, I love that, by the way, you didn't necessarily say superpowers,because that's kind of controversial, but there's no question that neurodivergents bring different strengths.
[00:06:31] Judy Katz: Um, and for all the companies that have been saying for years, oh, we want out of the box thinkers, well, maybe you should start thinking about how friendly your hiring process and your culture is to neurodivergents, because we definitely tend to be out of the box thinkers. So assuming that companies are valuing that, I'm going to speak to the companies.
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[00:06:50] Judy Katz: There are, uh, so many things that you can do and maybe even are already on your radar. Let's just start with job descriptions. Um, so you may already know that women don't tend to apply for the job unless they meet every single criteria. So there can be some imposter syndrome wrapped up in that. There can be some residual trauma around people's perception of your competence, because of, you know, moving through the world being outside of what's considered typical.
[00:07:21] Judy Katz: And so you may already put things on your job descriptions like, if you don't meet every qualification, go ahead and apply. You know, let's talk about how you can fulfill the qualifications of this job. That is also a very friendly thing to do for neurodivergents. Um, and you may even include neurodivergence in a statement that you might put on your job descriptions about, you know, we are committed to hiring diverse backgrounds, etc.
[00:07:47] Judy Katz: And not only put that as a statement, but only put something as a requirement if it's actually a requirement, because that's a way to sort of double down on that same thing. You're going to get a wider spectrum of applicants if you really are just putting only the requirements as requirements, and you can put other things as like, hey, this is nice to have, you know, other experience so that people can talk about that as well. But that's one of the top things just starting at the job description stage.
[00:08:16] Judy Katz: Being as upfront as you can about everything. Look, job seekers know the deal. We know that you have budgeted a certain amount for this job. Go ahead and put that on the job description. Again, that removes a barrier for a lot of different groups that might apply, and removes a lot of uncertainty, which that in itself is a neurodivergent-friendly thing to do, is removing the uncertainty in the process.
[00:08:42] Judy Katz: The last thing that I would say, I know that we're going to go on to a lot of other aspects of getting a job, but the last thing that I would say is that if you have one of those application systems where people have to upload their resume and then they have to type in everything, I, I think that a lot of neurodivergents will kind of self-select because they don't see that as, you know, necessary, um, or as logical. And neurodivergents, especially autistics, I think once we know the reason for something, we will lock in and we will do that. But if we can't see a reason for something, like having to fill in our, experience after already uploading a resume, we're probably going to self-select out of that. And so that's just kind of making the process makes sense, uh, as much as possible, is one of the most neurodivergent-friendly things you can do.
[00:09:29] Melissa: Yeah. love that because it also gives the job seeker kind of something to look for, to give them a green flag to say like, this might be an inclusive space because they're already being inclusive in the application process.
[00:09:45] Melissa: And I also wanted to touch on what you said about the applicant tracking system, and I can give a little bit of the why kind of behind this. And it might be true that for some companies the system they're using is causing issues. But in other cases it might actually be the person's resume that's maybe not being parsed correctly, and then it's causing you to have to go back and do that extra work afterwards when, you know, if the resume was in Word and in plain text format, it might be able to carry over to those fields more easily. And one of the things that's important is that when an employer is using this system, they're using it as their filing cabinet for all of their applications that come in, and they have the resume, but the information that's actually in the system is helping them keep it organized and being able to go in and do a search for, you know, specific keywords, which won't necessarily come up if it's just in your resume, it has to be in the fields that you said, you know, I have to go type all this in. So that's part of the why behind too.
[00:10:55] Judy Katz: Um, I'm going to actually throw one more thing out there that's come up fairly recently in our AI enabled world right now. There are a lot of discussions going on about how the systems that might be used to detect whether somebody used AI to write their cover letter, their resume, whatever, throw up a lot of false positives whenever we're talking about neurodivergent, especially autistic, writers and job seekers.
[00:11:23] Judy Katz: Um, so if you're using something like that to tell whether somebody wrote their cover letter or their resume with ChatGPT, just know that that can throw up a lot of false positives. Uh, a lot of us are exemplary readers and, well, I just did it, you know, use a lot of big words where maybe we don't need to, because those are the words that come to mind. That might be a function of dysnomia, by the way, as well. Um, or it might just be a function of background.
[00:11:47] Judy Katz: Um, so a lot of autistics in particular use EM dashes, which apparently is something that everyone has decided that only ChatGPT uses, which is ridiculous. So academic language, formal language, you know, you could definitely make the argument also that there needs to be more casual language or there needs to be an adjustment on that. But just know if you're using that kind of software, you are probably disadvantaging or selecting out neurodivergents by doing that.
[00:12:15] Judy Katz: The technology is not perfect, I'm sorry, like it's new, it's not perfect. It's probably never going to be perfect. We're looking for all these shortcuts. We're looking for all these savings. But by doing that, you end up really just relying on however they trained that AI model, and that's just not necessarily very unbiased at all, having, having worked in that field, I can tell you that the bias is huge in most LLMs. There's still lots of problems with using, well, both the AI itself and the checkers that pretend to be able to detect AI so well.
[00:12:49] Melissa: Yeah, and I'm really glad you mentioned that too. I actually had a personal experience with this when I was training someone at work, and going through her training materials. And this person is neurodivergent also, and it stood out as being written by AI. And as someone who reads resumes and cover letters every single day, I don't even have to run it through the system. I can tell right away when it's AI language. And what was so interesting was that when I talked to this person, she was like, I wrote the whole thing. So it's something that we have to be aware of on both sides.
[00:13:24] Melissa: And what I often advise people to do is, whether or not they used AI to help them write or to write, go back and put it into one of the systems, like ZeroGPT, and just see what it comes up with, because that's what the employer is going to see, right? If they're running it through that system, they're going to see the same thing. Or if they're just reading it, and they're reading these over and over, they start to see those red flags and the common words that it's using every time. So you might have to just go back and adjust your writing accordingly so that it doesn't look like that to someone else.
[00:13:59] Judy Katz: Which I think is great advice for anybody using generative AI, period. Now, I, I'm curious by the way, what you think about this, because this is part of the toolbox that I try to give neurodivergents when doing coaching and whatever. What do you think about people using AI to make their writing more casual, or more readable like potentially you're starting off with a very formal academic sounding, but human written, cover letter. What do you think about, you know, running it through, a GPT to kind of make it sound more human?
[00:14:34] Melissa: It's such an interesting way to ask that.
[00:14:37] Judy Katz: So weird, right? Yeah.
[00:14:39] Melissa: And you know what? This is changing so fast that it's becoming so hard to even keep up with what I really should be recommending to people. Because at first I was like, do not use this, it is not going to help you. And now you know, things are shifting so much that I'm just trying to figure out what is the best practice for this?
[00:15:00] Melissa: And what I have seen as of right now is that if you go and you, you think to yourself, you have to come up with your own story, right? It cannot do this for you. So you have to think to yourself, what is it that I actually want to say? What is it that this employer needs to know about me?
[00:15:18] Melissa: Usually that's going to be not just what you've done, but how you approach things. And for neurodivergents, that's very different and unique and can stand out in a really good way. And then it's the successes that you've had. And it's why do you do this work? And for a lot of neurodivergents, the why is really important to us too. So if you lean into that and you can tell the story in that way, it becomes more human automatically because you're putting these kind of personal pieces into it.
[00:15:50] Melissa: And what I would suggest people to do is say, I'm going to go write out what it is that I need to say to people, and it doesn't have to be perfect, and that that's totally fine. It can be like a super rough draft, but it's your words. Once you have it, you can put it into AI. You can say, hey, edit this for clarity, and then it will give you a much more polished version.
[00:16:13] Melissa: But then you have to again, go back and do the editing and make sure that you're not using the overused words, like if this is something that you would not say out loud, don't put it in there, because that is immediately going to throw people off and make it feel less readable and feel less connectable. You know, I see something like adept. It comes up every single time that I see something written by AI. Don't use it.
[00:16:41] Judy Katz: I would not hesitate to use the word adept in, in writing or speech. I, I mean, I just, I love that advice, but also I just used exemplary in a sentence completely spontaneously, so I can see where that would be really, really difficult. And I'm sorry to put you on the spot, by the way. I feel like we need to test this. We need to test, you know, running one of my cover letters or some of my writing through AI to see whether it comes up sounding better or not.
[00:17:04] Melissa: Totally. Yeah. And I mean, it is becoming, like it is a tool that everyone is using, so I think it's important to talk about it.
[00:17:11] Judy Katz: Well, thank you. I appreciate that.
[00:17:13] Melissa: Yeah. So I know we've talked so much about a lot of things already. Can we go back to thinking about the advantages of hiring neurodivergent employees? Because you touched on this a little bit when you talked about the out of the box thinking. Why else would it be beneficial to an organization to want to have more neurodivergents on their team?
[00:17:35] Judy Katz: Okay, so first of all, when we talk about neurodivergence, it's a huge, huge range of different ways of being, you know, and ways of thinking. You know, first of all, there's just the advantage that people are going to think differently. And so for people who, and for organizations that really want out of the box thinkers want a diversity of thought, just to prevent group think, and prevent the same kinds of solutions over and over, having thinking that's different, is a huge advantage.
[00:18:04] Judy Katz: There are also studies that show things like in brainstorming exercises, you know, where somebody says, think of as many different uses as you can for a paperclip, and then, you know, you group everything together, autistics will tend to come up with fewer examples or different uses, but they're not at all the ones that everybody else came up with. So if I'm autistic and my sticky notes were gold or whatever, those are the ones that stay up on the board because they're not getting grouped with anybody else. Um, so the lateral thinking,that is such a huge advantage, tends to be really, really strong with autistics in particular.
[00:18:41] Judy Katz: Now, again, not all neurodivergence is autism. Neurodivergence relates to a huge range of different types of brains and even within autism, you know, you've heard the verbiage of spectrum, which is, we're not going to get into that, but I have some, uh, some materials on that. But the reason that that word is used is that there are so many different ways to be autistic. Even for one person, there are so many different things that could be, you know, strong or more challenging on different days. Um, so I don't want to paint with too broad of a brush, but that tends to be a common autistic trait is that the lateral thinking is just way out there off the charts.
[00:19:19] Judy Katz: You can also get, with a lot of different types of neurodivergence, you can get a depth of expertise, that is only present when somebody tends to do hyperfocus or, you know, years-long special interests, or can kind of commit to one field for years and years and years. Um, so the depth of expertise is wonderful.
[00:19:39] Judy Katz: I think that we don't talk about the strengths of ADHD enough as well, particularly in a corporate world where we value productivity and focus and this very sort of robotic way of being able to do this task and then do that task and focus on this. But, ADHDers have amazing strengths, in socially, the ability to hyperfocus as well when they get something that they're really motivated and interested in, the creativity that comes with ADHD, the spontaneity, they're fun to have on your team. That's a just a wonderful type of thing that different neurotypes can bring, to different environments.
[00:20:14] Judy Katz: Um, I had something else that I was, I think I lost it in, in my train of thought, but, I think that coming back to that idea of just hiring for difference. You know, I think that a lot of companies, tend to do, oh well, are they a good cultural fit? Which can start to feel like, are they the same as everybody else on the team? And, you know, I think it's possible for people to fit in but still expand the perspectives that are being brought to your team. And it's also possible thatfitting in is sometimes not always what you want, and that you want people who will kind of, expand the horizons of your team. And being open to that is such a wonderful cultural gift.
[00:20:56] Melissa: Yeah, and that's great not only for the employers to hear, but also for job seekers, because sometimes, especially if you've been so misaligned in your previous jobs, you might be thinking about this as a weakness. So if we turn this around and we're like, hey, these are all the great things that you're actually bringing, and you can take that and own it, now you can show up much differently in the job search too.
[00:21:21] Judy Katz: Absolutely. I encourage everybody to really think about their strengths, and we can talk more about that. Also from the employer side, valuing strengths as well, if you'd like.
[00:21:31] Melissa: Yeah, and I love strength so much. I actually just recorded another episode with someone where, where we talked about CliftonStrengths. So go back and listen to that one if you have not, because that was awesome.
[00:21:42] Judy Katz: I would love to. I love CliftonStrengths actually. So that's wonderful.
[00:21:47] Melissa: And that is one of my hyper-focus areas. I am kind of obsessed with CliftonStrengths, and this was coming to mind as you were talking about all the different strengths, where before I knew I was neurodivergent, I was, um, doing a training for my team at work, and one of my coworkers said something like, how do you know everything about this topic? And I was like, well, I'm a learner that that's in my top strengths. And she was like, yeah, but this goes even farther than that. And I was like, oh, interesting.
[00:22:20] Judy Katz: It feels like she's kind of othering you. Doesn't it? Like it almost feels like she was saying, you're weird. Did you get that sense, or is that just my baggage coming in, or what?
[00:22:29] Melissa: You know what, it might have been a little bit of that, and actually this person is also neurodivergent, and so it might have been her kind of like subconsciously wondering about this, which is very
[00:22:42] Judy Katz: It might, oh, that's another, yeah, that's another interesting perspective. And you know, I find that like, even if somebody is neurodivergent, that doesn't mean that they don't carry neurotypical expectations. I find this, you know, as a person, as a parent, quite a lot, being neurodivergent doesn't always mean being friendly to other neurodivergents. And that can be one of the, harder things to unpack, especially if you're late diagnosed, and are having to go through that process of unmasking and, and refiguring out what all of that means to you.
[00:23:14] Melissa: And especially since, like you said, there are so many variations of this, right? Like not just in terms of the different things themselves, but then within that, like there's so many ways that you can show up.
[00:23:27] Judy Katz: Yeah. I think that if companies are looking at this from the perspective of, oh, you know, what are the 1, 2, 3, A, B, C things that I can do to become more friendly to neurodivergents? Just the breadth of different ways of being, it, is probably going to stymie that a little bit. Um, and I think a lot of it tends to fall under the umbrella of flexibility, which is not necessarily something that organizations, especially larger organizations, are great at. But it is, I think, something that can be implemented, and can be really key to welcoming different perspectives.
[00:24:07] Judy Katz: You know, why, how are you going to say, we want something different from what we've always hired for, recruited for, valued, promoted, retained. We want something different from that, but we're not going to change what we are doing, any of those things at all. That's not probably a great place to come from, you know?
[00:24:30] Melissa: Yeah. And as you're saying that, I'm wondering if it's helpful for employers to focus on their outcomes. Like, what is it that you're actually trying to do? And then maybe we can think a little bit more creatively about how we get there, because obviously if you have a goal and you have not yet met it, there might be something standing in the way, and maybe it's that you're trying to do things the same way over and over.
[00:24:56] Judy Katz: Right, right. Yeah. I mean, definition of insanity, right?
[00:25:01] Melissa: Yeah, exactly. Okay. So I know that we've talked about the application process and the hiring process a little bit, but I also want to talk about just what does a neurodivergent-friendly workplace look like? So once actually gets hired, and we want to make sure that the company can retain this person, how is it that they can go about doing that? So when you're working with an employer, what kinds of things are you advising them to do to create more inclusive and neurodivergent-friendly workplaces?
[00:25:35] Judy Katz: Wonderful question. Because of course putting up a sign or, you know, putting it on your job descriptions or whatever, that you are, neurodivergent-friendly is only the very first step on the journey, right? So, um, I actually know personally of companies that are one of those like big enough companies that if you Google, neurodivergent-friendly workplaces, they will come up. But I know people who have worked there and have told on them that it's quite the opposite. So if you think your company is being told on call me, just kidding.
[00:26:08] Judy Katz: But I think that flexibility, let's go back to that, just to close the loop on, on the flexibility conversation. That's really, really key. And focusing on, you know, what do you really want, are you focusing too much on how we get to that result, or are you just focusing on the result? Because neurodivergents are going to neurodivergent, we're going to take a different path to get there. And it may look weird to you, and you may not think that we will get to that end result. But, often we do, often it's even better. So a very rigid focus on process rather than results, um, I think can be really anathema to retaining and creating a friendly workspace for neurodivergents. So having that flexibility where you can, um, I think is really, really important.
[00:26:55] Judy Katz: Flexibility is kind of a, it's an abstract concept, but in terms of specific things that your company can do, I think that having work from home policies or hybrid policies is one of the most friendly things that you can do for a variety of different audiences, but neurodivergents in particular. Um, you may notice, this is my home office. The lights are very low. I have pleasing colors. It's decorated how I want. Um, I have the couch back there that if I need to rest my eyes for five minutes, I go and do that, or if I need to take a call laying on the couch, I do that.
[00:27:32] Judy Katz: There are all these sensory components of being neurodivergent, often, particularly autistic, I don't want to say that they're the same thing, but, often autism is one of the ones that we talk about most frequently. There often all of these sensory components and I said to be flexible, but when everybody's in the office together, how flexible can you really be? You know, I understand that there are real barriers. You know, if somebody comes in to work with heavy cologne, um, or we have to sit under fluorescent lights, you know, or all of these different things, then it can create a real sensory barrier.
[00:28:09] Judy Katz: I can control all of those things in my home office, and it's actually cheaper for the company too, for me to be here. So, that is one of the biggest things that you can do, for sensory reasons, to reduce the need to mask, and to allow people to just do whatever they need to do to get work done, whether it's having music, whether it's having total quiet, pacing, chanting, stimming, whatever you need to do, whatever I need to do, I can do it here and I can really control my own workday, my sensory inputs, and how I work. So in terms of a tactical thing that you can do to implement that flexibility, allowing people to work from home most or all of the time, is a huge, huge step.
[00:28:54] Judy Katz: The other huge thing that I wouldsuggest is a little bit more abstract. If people say about your culture a lot that it's like high school, that's probably not a good environment for neurodivergents. And as a leader, you may not hear that, but I think you need to listen to that. You know, I think you need to listen with a very open mind to what people are actually saying about your culture.
[00:29:17] Judy Katz: And you may have to go to one of those websites where people talk crap about companies, what is it, Glassdoor? Like go and figure out what people are actually saying about your company, because if it's the kind of place where things are very cliquey, where, you know, moving throughout the organization and sort of promoting your work, and making connections, and getting people to try to climb the hierarchies, and everything like that. If that's what your culture is like, then that's going to be a culture that is not very friendly to most neurodivergents.
[00:29:47] Judy Katz: You know, some may excel in that kind of culture, but many will not, because promoting ourselves is not necessarily something that we are amazing at. It's not necessarily something that we think we should need to do at work. You know, a lot of autistics, and this is something that has been studied pretty thoroughly, a lot of autistics feel like their job is to work... at work, which sounds very, very reasonable. And, by the way, just from my community, from my coaching clients, I can confirm that this is true.
[00:30:20] Judy Katz: From myself, you know, I look back on my career, and how many times I said, okay, I'm just going to dig in and be the best instructional designer that I can be, that'll make my job bulletproof, and that will make me valued, that will keep my job safe. That has never been the key, you know, that has never been the way. And especially at companies that really require you to do a lot of politicking and connecting and, and everything like that. The idea that just doing a good job, uh, allows you to keep your job, is one that autistics fall for, in particular, a lot. And if that is your company culture, then you may well lose all of that deep expertise and such that comes with a brain that likes to hyperfocus, a brain that likes to stay on one thing for years and years, a brain that likes to really dig in and solve problems. You might be disadvantaging those brains and the people that come with them.
[00:31:13] Judy Katz: I actually have one more thing that I wanted to say about companies and retaining, which again, is a little bit more abstract, but consistency. You know, you don't have to never change course, but I see something in job descriptions a lot that is, you know, like, this is the fast-paced environment. You know, it has a lot of language that implies that, if you can't keep up, don't apply here, you're not good enough.
[00:31:37] Judy Katz: I think that honestly, companies do that a lot when they don't have a strategy. Um, sorry. Hot take. That is what that says to me whenever I see that in a job description these days, that like, we're changing course all the time, we're changing our values, we're putting out one set of values, but expecting people to, shift and, and respond to all these different things that may or may not align with those values. That's not going to be a very friendly environment for a lot of neurodivergents. Having consistency, at least in where you're going, can be a huge benefit, to the neurodivergents that are on your crew.
[00:32:10] Melissa: Oh my gosh. I love all these workplace culture things too. It's also one of my special interests, so I'm sure we could go on forever about this.
[00:32:19] Judy Katz: Right.
[00:32:19] Melissa: But it's so interesting because the things that you're talking about are things that most companies are not doing, because it's hard to do.
[00:32:27] Judy Katz: Right, right, exactly. I mean the whole, you better keep up with a fast-paced environment type of thing, you know? I mean, it is hard. And I think there's a reason that they write about it in this kind of gaslighting way of, oh, well, you just can't hack it, you know? The implication is you're not smart enough. Or you're not capable and adept enough, in some way, I just, um, um, to be able to keep in this culture and that means that you are going to retain a certain kind of person, but not necessarily the kinds of people that, or not necessarily the breadth of kinds of people that you want to attract and retain.
[00:33:07] Melissa: I mean, the thing is, a lot of times they're not even retaining a certain kind of person. They're not retaining at all.
[00:33:12] Judy Katz: Well, that's true.
[00:33:14] Melissa: Like these practices
[00:33:15] Judy Katz: was trying to be nice for a second there,
[00:33:17] Melissa: no, let's not be nice.
[00:33:18] Judy Katz: but even as I said it, I was like, actually what psychopaths are staying in that environment? It kind of grinds everybody up,but I think that, I see the autistics, in particular, there's so much extra mental load to try to navigate waters that are constantly changing.
[00:33:38] Judy Katz: So I think that's really, you know, one of the things that I work with companies on and this is from companies that are doing the right thing that are paying attention to this, if they're going through a big change, like a merger, I can help companies figure out how to make that the best employee experience, for neurodivergents, who I feel like are sort of at the, you know, like picture a bell curve, we're at these ends, and, from a design perspective, if you're designing the employee experience, making a better employee experience for neurodivergents can also make a better employee experience for everyone else in the middle.
[00:34:11] Judy Katz: And you know, that's just one of the principles of accessibility and usability, is that when you make something widely accessible, it's often more usable, even to the person who doesn't have an accessibility need. And so that's very much something that, companies can work on with an expert, can do, can retain their employees. Because especially when you're going through big change, that is one of the things that you want to do. And it is possible to do, but you're right, a lot of companies don't do it because it's harder.
[00:34:37] Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. And you know what? You said something that the autistics say that their job is to work. And when you said that, I was like, yeah, obviously, like what else is your job?
[00:34:48] Judy Katz: Obviously, right? Right. There's a company that I worked for before that I'm not going to name, but it was very much that kind of one where people said, oh, it's like high school here. And I had a coworker who had been laid off previously and he was coming back in, around the same time that I was, he had been trying to get back to this company, and he told me that you have two jobs here. One is to do your job, and one is to keep your job. And I thought that was ridiculous. I was like, well, clearly my job is to do my job, right? I'm senior instructional designer, I have to do the good instructional design, and that's it.
[00:35:28] Judy Katz: But two years later he was still there, taking people from different departments out to lunch every week, showing them his work. You know, I think he might have even spent more time on that, than on doing his work. Two years later, he was still there, and I was not. And that very much is, it was just a lesson. Now if I had wanted to stay there, I could have taken that to heart, but I didn't really, it was burning me out. Um, I suffered some pretty serious burnout afterward. And a lot of companies just don't pay attention to that. And I guess that's their choice. But, um, I, I at least hope that they see it in their retention numbers.
[00:36:07] Melissa: Yeah.
[00:36:07] Judy Katz: I feel like they do.
[00:36:08] Melissa: And, I mean, that's something that I always advise people on too, is like the companies, they have their specific goals and their specific values, and while we might say, those are stupid, like why are they doing that? It's true that that's what they value. So if that's what they value, let's look somewhere else for a company that does value the same thing as us.
[00:36:29] Judy Katz: Right, right. Oh, that is an excellent point. You know, not all companies are like that. There are lots and lots and lots and lots of companies of different sizes, different locations and everything. So, you can actually move beyond that culture, I hope. So, let's talk about that. Let's talk about how to do that. I think you wanted to talk about that, right?
[00:36:49] Melissa: Yeah. So actually before we do that, I wanted to ask you one more thing about this, because I'm curious to know if you find that there are any specific types of companies that are doing these things really well. Like, I know you mentioned sometimes the big companies struggle more, so then, is it true that sometimes smaller companies are doing it well, or there's certain industries that are doing it really well, or any place that someone can like look?
[00:37:13] Judy Katz: That's a really good question. So first of all, I think that any company can do it well. I think that the kinds of accommodations and flexibility and everything that we're talking about do not require a lot of overhead. Sometimes it's actually the opposite. You know, from working from home, uh, really committing to a work, from home policy means less of an investment in corporate real estate and and such.
[00:37:34] Judy Katz: I think that there might be a perception that larger companies would do this better because they can afford to do more accommodations, but these accommodations are not necessarily expensive. They might be different from what a company is doing, and changing things might kind of cost, or at least be effortful, but I don't think that it really requires the budget of a Fortune 500 company, or whatever, to have proper accommodations for neurodivergents. I've seen lots of small companies do this beautifully.
[00:38:06] Judy Katz: I feel like I've seen honestly more culture related types of neuro-friendliness in small companies than large companies. I think large companies can do it, but I don't think they often do. My comfort level tends to be with a company that is, you know, somewhere in the like 200 to 600 kind of range. Certainly different people have different comfort levels. Oh, of course, my comfort level right now is like my solo consultancy. Like that's what I love to do. But when I have been, you know, in the corporate world, that has tended to be more of my comfort level.
[00:38:40] Judy Katz: And I think that a lot of neurodivergents like that. I think that when you have smaller teams that are really kind of focusing on their people, um, and caring about their people and their individual strengths, that tends to be a more neurodivergent-friendly kind of place. And I've experienced that a lot of people tend to sort of get lost in larger companies. And again, I don't think that large companies can't be neuro-inclusive. There certainly are some large companies that are doing a great job. But I think that there are things that are more, maybe a little bit more built in, often with smaller companies.
[00:39:14] Judy Katz: The kinds of companies that I think are doing a really good job, and at least the ones that I've seen in my work,often have some reason to care about neurodivergence that's not focused on their employees. Um, so they may care about accommodations because they're an event company, or a medical provider, or, you know, something along those lines. And that sort of focus on the customer becomes part of the company culture as well. Again, I don't think it has to be the case, but it is often the case. I think that's been a really interesting thing for me to see. Again, any company can do this great. But those are some of the ones that I've seen where they're making those investments because it is affecting their bottom line in some way.
[00:39:59] Melissa: Yeah, and it's already a part of what they're thinking about every day, if that's the case. If they're thinking about like, how can we make this work for our customers, then it kind of naturally carries into the employee space too. So I think that's a really good point. And I will say that I had a similar experience with like very small companies, very large, in the middle. And right now the company I work for is like 250. I think you're right, that's a kind of a sweet spot.
[00:40:25] Melissa: And I also just wanted to mention for people to think about, it's not only just about the company itself, it's about the sub-team and the managers and how they're supporting you, because I know, I feel like I got really lucky with this, where I have a manager that really understands me and values me for my neurodivergent strengths, even when she didn't know they were neurodivergent strengths. She is saying like, this is what I need on my team. So that can actually make a situation that otherwise might be bad, turn into something really good depending on the specific manager.
[00:41:04] Judy Katz: That is absolutely the case. It sounds like she's a really strong manager. That's wonderful. You know, I, I, coach people and work with managers, and a lot of times I see things like managers, sort of expecting a certain consensus related culture, managers being insecure to the point where they, they don't like being asked clarifying questions, maybe even in private. And that works against what I feel are actually neurodivergent strengths. I mean, I think that this is one of those things that is the case across the board that like your company culture can be a certain thing, but whether you stay or go is so much more dependent on your individual manager than anything else. People leave or stay with good or bad managers.
[00:41:50] Melissa: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:41:52] Judy Katz: No question.
[00:41:53] Melissa: So do you have any other tips for anything that someone can look out for, whether it's like in their researching of the company, or in the hiring process itself? Anything that would signify this might be a good employer, or this might have some red flags that I want to be aware of.
[00:42:11] Judy Katz: I would definitely go look on Glassdoor, or any of those sites, anywhere that you can get like, personal types of opinions on what a particular company, maybe even a particular team, is like. There might be people out there who are saying, oh, it's so bureaucratic and it takes forever to get something done, which is the kind of, um, environment I always thought I would hate, but honestly, now after having a couple of decades of experience in mostly corporate organizations, I read that as, oh, there's more consistency to the culture at this company than this person is appreciating. It might feel very slow to them, and it might feel very slow to me, but the upside of it might be that there is consistency, and that we're not being told, oh, you have to work a hundred hours a week, on constantly changing priorities, because that is a bigger downside to me.
[00:43:07] Judy Katz: So I would try to get the word on the street, because again, I could tell you specifically companies that are praised for being neurodivergent-friendly, that I know plenty of neurodivergents that have burned out there. And so kind of getting the word on the street is my recommendation, especially within neurodivergent communities. You know, like I said, there are different ways to read different reviews. One person's bureaucratic nightmare is another person's consistent, you know, utopia. But ask people who are like you, and who value, you know, similar things to you.
[00:43:39] Judy Katz: So I want to just wrap up by asking if you have any last words of wisdom that you want to share?
[00:43:45] Judy Katz: I think that the kinds of things that we're talking about whenever we're talking about accommodating neurodivergence from the recruiting process through, you know, retaining and providing a good employee experience, um, I think that a lot of these ways of doing things are really not that hard. They reap a lot of value in terms of the breadth of different kinds of brains that you will hire, and they will improve the employee experience for everyone. So I think that these things are very, very worth doing, obviously, not only from a, it's the right thing to do kind of perspective, but also in terms of improving your culture, improving the kinds of solutions that your company is able to think of and shift to, and be agile, you know, with, and so I just think it's, it's very worthwhile, to investigate that, because again, if we're designing for the extremes, that's going to create a better experience for everyone in the middle.
[00:44:45] Melissa: Definitely. So if people want to get in touch with you and learn more about all the great work that you are doing, where can they find you?
[00:44:51] Judy Katz: NeurodivergentWorking.com, or on LinkedIn, I'm there frequently, but you can also get in touch on the website. I'm happy to start a conversation there.
[00:45:00] Melissa: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here today, Judy. It was so great to talk to you.
[00:45:05] Judy Katz: Thank you. You too.
[00:45:08] Melissa: If you love this podcast, be sure to hit subscribe. Leave me a review and share it with a friend so we can help more high performing misfits find work they love. See you next time.
